Re: Radial mast Changes

[Tracy Usher <usher@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I'm a little interested where John found his quote as it appears to have 
lost quite a bit from the exact wording in the "Fundamental Rule" posted 
on the ILCA website (see 
http://www.laserinternational.org/rules/bylaw1.htm). But the basic idea 
is right...

A Laser (or Radial or 4.7) is defined by the Laser Construction Manual,

The Class Rules specify that a "legal" Laser is one that is built by 
"licensed builders" according to the Laser Construction Manual,

The Class Rules specify how we can rig and race the boat.

Bruce Kirby is the "owner" of the Laser trademark and he (or his 
company) licenses "approved" (by ILCA and ISAF) builders to produce 
boats in accordance with the Laser Construction Manual. There are 
currently four licensed builders: Vanguard (North and Central America 
and the Caribbean), Performance Sailcraft Australia (Australia + ?), 
Performance Sailcraft Japan (Japan + ?), Performance Sailcraft Europe 
(the entire rest of the world - thought I bet they don't sell many boats 
in Antarctica). In addition, PSE sub-licenses a South American builder.

The Laser Construction Manual is (and should be to prevent counterfeits) 
"confidential" and outside of Bruce Kirby and the builders there is only 
a small circle of people, including some members of the ILCA World 
Council (not me), who have access to it. This group can agree to modify 
the Laser Construction Manual (and ask Ian Lineberger just how easy a 
task it is to get just the builders to agree to anything!), the Class 
Rules do not specify that the membership has to also approve those 
changes. The LCM is "registered" with ISAF as a mechanism to make sure 
there is a "golden" copy (ISAF "approval" enters through the Olympic 
contract - but that is a different kettle of fish).

If we want to rig or sail our boats differently then we have to vote on 
changes to the Class Rules.

This is the system that the Laser Class has operated under for 35 years 
and it would be hard to argue that it has not been a wildly successful 
model. I don't have it in front of me, but if you search the e-mail list 
archives you can find a nice list somewhere of all the changes the Laser 
has gone through over its 35 years, many of which were introduced 
through changes in the LCM (and changes to the Radial sail - we are at 
Mark VI now? - are recent examples).

The key principle is that changes introduced through the LCM do not make 
existing boats obsolete (or existing boats can be modified in order to 
make them "legal", like buying a Mark VI Radial sail when your Mark V 
wears out). The testing done with the composite upper shows that, while 
it appears to satisfy the goal of opening the weight range, it is not a 
magic bullet. Nobody is strapping one on and suddenly catapulting 
themselves to the front of the fleet.

But don't believe me! Go read this stuff yourself!! Read the class rules 
at the link above, go to www.laserforum.org and read the threads on the 
composite spar. The information is out there!

And, interestingly, you can still see some of the original motivation at 
the ILCA website: http://www.laserinternational.org/lwedit.htm - scroll 
down about half way to see a bit on the "carbon" spar.

Also, for those of you who are not ILCA-NA members (and if you live in 
the North American Region you should be!), you can read Ned Jones Q&A on 
the "carbon" spars in the Summer Laser Sailor by going to www.laser.org, 
following the "news" tab, click on "The Laser Sailor" in the left column 
and then download the pdf file (warning! it is quite large -don't do it 
on a dialup connection!).

Tracy

John D-E wrote:

>Mike, the class is owned by the licensed builders.  The boats are built
>according to a builders manual that is confidential (and "interestingly"
>registered with the ISAF).  There is no rule in the rule book that says what
>material the mast shall be made from.  The first part of the fundamental
>rule is:
>
>"The laser shall be raced in accordance with these rules, with only the
>hull, equipment, type of equipment, placing or equipment, fittings, type of
>fittings, spars, sail and battens as supplied by the builder except when
>such an alteration or change is specifically authorised by Part 3 of these
>rules.
>
>The introduction, however, to by-law 1 states:
>
>The principle of the Laser Class Rules is that no changes to the boat are
>allowed unless they are specifically permitted by Class Rules.
>
>The Object of Part One states:
>
>The Laser is a strict one design dinghy where the true test, when raced, is
>between helmspersons and not between boats and equipment.
>
>One could argue changing to the composite topmast is a change to the boat
>(it certainly is in the common use of those words) but then again "as
>supplied by the builder" can cover a multitude of sins.  It would be very
>interesting to see what the manual states about mast construction.  
>
>John D-E
>D5 Sec 
>Who will be 59 for a long time.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Schmidt [mailto:halibut@mindspring.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:05 PM
>To: 'Tracy Usher'; john@jdecm.com
>Cc: laser@laser.org; 'Laser Masters E-Mail List'
>Subject: RE: Radial mast Changes
>
>Tracey,
>
>What I'm still trying to understand is - if we defeated the original
>proposal by membership vote, how is it that we are now being overruled and
>the composite section introduced?
>
>I'm not saying whether the section is good or bad - but what happened to the
>process of approving significant changes in the strict one design rules?
>What's next - a carbon fiber hull?  Kevlar sails?  Do we get to decide?  Who
>does?
>
>Who really controls the Laser class today?  Not the membership, or so it
>would appear.
>
>Your insights appreciated...Mike Schmidt
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-laser@cerebus.winsite.com
>[mailto:owner-laser@cerebus.winsite.com] On Behalf Of Tracy Usher
>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 6:45 PM
>To: john@jdecm.com
>Cc: laser@laser.org; 'Laser Masters E-Mail List'
>Subject: Re: Radial mast Changes
>
>John D-E wrote:
>
>  
>
>>My recollection is that the class voted down the composite mast section a
>>few years ago.   The claim that heavier sailors do not suffer a performance
>>loss is "interesting".   Its also interesting the Laser Class (i.e. you and
>>me) having voted down the change now appears to be funding it.  Also 
>>interesting that ISAF has to be advised and even vote on it yet the 
>>average laser sailor does not.  The "Regulation/Racing Rule/Affected" 
>>is stated to be "Women's One Person Dinghy Mast".
>>
>>John D-E
>>District 5 Sec
>>Grand Master who wants to stay with full rig at Masters Worlds when he
>>    
>>
>turns
>  
>
>>65 in 2101.
>> 
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>You are correct... in the 1999 vote which brought us the "new" rigging the
>then proposal for a carbon spar was, I'm told, narrowly defeated. At that
>time no prototypes existed, no cost estimates or targets were in place,
>etc., etc.
>
>The claim that heavier sailors do not suffer is a characteristic of the
>composite, versus aluminum, spar. The explanation given to me is that the
>composite spar has a higher spring constant so "snaps back" faster than the
>aluminum and so "feels" like a stiffer spar. The heavier person has the same
>"fee" as aluminum, the lighter person gets the benefit of a more flexible
>spar. I'll comment further if I ever get my 200lbs on a boat with one
>though...
>
>I think a lot of people want to believe that the Laser Class doesn't listen
>to their complaints about problems with the boat. Here is an example of the
>class listening and trying to find a real solution to several problems: the
>competitive weight range of the Radial is perceived to be to narrow and too
>high, the upper mast section is prone to failure and develops permanent
>bends (both due primarily to riveting the mast collar into place), etc.
>
>Both the Laser and Radial are Olympic classes. It is standard in the Olympic
>Contract between the Olympic Classes and ISAF that they have to be informed
>of any changes to the equipment and does give them the right to veto any
>changes they think are not in the best interest of the class and the
>Olympics. For the RS-X boards I bet they are very pro-active in this area.
>But do you think they are going to exercise that right with the Laser Class?
>Especially when seen by everyone as making the Radial even more accessible
>to more competitors worldwide?
>
>Once again, I would like to encourage everyone who wants more background
>information to go over to The Laser Forum (www.laserforum.org) and search
>for the threads on the carbon spar. You can find a lot of comments in those
>threads, from Vanguard representatives (who have spearheaded the R&D effort)
>to feedback from people who have sailed with the spars. And check out the
>Ned Jones Q&A in the Summer Laser Sailor. 
>There IS a lot of info out there about these spars!
>
>Tracy
>-----------------------------
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